Willkommen zum Fukushima-Info- und -Diskussions-Forum des physikBlogs.

Die Zahl der Kommentare auf unsere Fukushima-Beiträge ist jenseits der 1000er Marke. Es wird zu unübersichtlich!
Daher gibt's dieses Forum, bei dem ihr über den Unfall von Fukushima kommentieren könnt, was das Zeug hält!

Zu einer kleinen Einführung, hier entlang.

Ihr seid neu hier? Das physikBlog hat in vier Artikeln den Unfall von Fukushima begleitet. Eine Lektüre, zumindest des Aktuellsten, empfiehlt sich vor dem Mitdiskutieren!

Es sei erwähnt, dass wir bei der Moderation der Kommentare hier weniger streng sind, als im Blog. Ihr seid freier in eurer Themenwahl.

Viel Spaß, André & Andi vom physikBlog.

Wie geht es weiter - die Roadmap von Tepco
  • OlorinOlorin April 2011
    Das nenne ich doch mal nen Plan statt Aktionismus.
    Viele Maßnahmen sind natürlich nicht konkretisiert und eine Ausfallsicherheit der Systeme (Lebensdauer Betonpumpe, Einwirkungen weiterer Unwetter bpsw.) ist nicht in jedem Fall evaluiert.

    Aber sonst...

    Hochinteressant finde ich:

    - "High likelihood of underground water around the building (sub-drainage water) to be contaminated."

    - nunmehr festes Vorhaben der Einsarkophagierung (und das nicht nach 10+ Jahren Planung wie in Chornobyl, sondern recht fix)

    - "Risk [5]: Possibility of prolonged work in high dose level area" und "Risk[2]: Possibility of prolonged work of sealing the damaged location"

    Will heißen, man beschönigt die Bestrahlung von Arbeitern in keinster Weise.

    Weiters finde ich daran interessant, daß man vom Abdichten des beschädigten PCV / Suppression Pools von Block 2 redet - ich sehe aber nirgends die Aufgabe, die Stelle zu lokalisieren.
    Sollte man das etwa schon getan haben?
  • TimTim April 2011
    > Challenges abound to control crippled reactors
    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110418004891.htm

    > But under its new timetable, the utility decided to give precedence to a method of pouring water to fill reactor containment vessels to cool pressure vessels as suggested by U.S. nuclear experts.

    > This water-filling method is able to bring about a cooling effect within a short period, TEPCO official Junichi Matsumoto said, adding that the utility determined that filling containment vessels with water would be "the fastest way to cool fuel rods."

    > Under the timetable, the water-filling operation for the Nos. 1 and 3 reactors requires three months for completion. As for the No. 2 reactor, TEPCO is aiming to finish related work within six to nine months because it is also necessary to repair the damaged pressure suppression chamber.

    > Each containment vessel has a water capacity of about 6,000 to 7,400 tons. Experts have pointed out risks such as the vessels breaking down after being loaded with such an enormous amount of water or being unable to withstand a series of aftershocks.


    Und noch weitere interessante Details, die ich bisher noch nicht kannte. Auch die Einschätzung am Ende von "Michio Ishikawa, a top advisor to the Japan Nuclear Technology Institute" gibt gute Einblicke.

    Siehe dazu auch schon jetzt:
    > Heat stroke adds to TEPCO workers' woes
    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110418004905.htm
  • engeng April 2011
    In der ersten Nachricht sind aber viele Spekulationen enthalten. "Wie Experten meinen" steht dort oft als Quelle, ohne genauer die Experten zu benennen. Und das Experten sehr unterschiedliche Meinungen haben ist ja bekannt.
  • MatthiasMatthias Mai 2011
    (Sorry, falls das andernorts schon behandelt wurde)
    Tepco bereitet den Einbau von vier "devices" am Block 1 vor, die innerhalb von 24h 95% der radioaktiven Substanzen aus der Luft filtern? saugen? sollen. Ab Donnerstag sollen acht Mitarbeiter im Reaktorgebäude arbeiten können:
    http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/02_11.html
  • SileneSilene Mai 2011
    [NHK] TEPCO may face more problems in stabilizing plant
    On Tuesday, TEPCO announced a new timeline which reflects the problems that have emerged since it revealed the original road map one month earlier.
    It says it will keep to its original schedule of stabilizing the plant sometime between October and January.
    [...]
    TEPCO told reporters that the barrier set up in the sea near the water intake of the No.3 reactor may be failing to prevent contaminated water from spreading.
    The utility said it will use the mineral zeolite to remove radioactive cesium from the sea.

    Workers have not been able to enter the buildings of the No.2 and No.3 reactors, making it impossible to restore their cooling functions.

    In addition to these obstacles, TEPCO may also face an increase in the amount of radioactive water, highly radioactive work environments, and the possible effects of the rainy season, typhoons and aftershocks.
  • TimTim Mai 2011
    > Poor estimates force timetable revision
    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110518005659.htm

    ...

    Groundwater shields planned

    Measures to deal with groundwater contamination were newly included in the latest road map.

    The large amount of groundwater at the Fukushima plant had been released into the sea from ditches so that it would not weaken the strength of the reactor building or flow into reactor buildings. Due to radioactive materials released in the wake of the nuclear accident, however, this underground water has been contaminated and it has not been possible to drain it as before.

    In the turbine building of the No. 6 reactor, for example, contaminated groundwater has seeped in and accumulated to a depth of up to 2 meters. If water flows into a reactor building, the emergency power system to cool the reactor may stop operating. Pumping started on May 1, and 1,700 tons of water were transferred to a makeshift tank and other facilities by Tuesday. To store water contaminated with low-level radioactive materials, TEPCO must build tanks to store about 16,000 tons of water for the coming month alone.

    There is a chance that highly contaminated water generated after water injection into the Nos. 1 and 3 reactors may seep into the surrounding environment, further contaminating groundwater. The new road map includes a plan to place 30-meter-high barriers in the ground around reactor and turbine buildings to block leaking water.

    ...


    Danach kommen noch Details zum "500-meter dike to be built".
  • TimTim Mai 2011
    > Stabilizing reactors by year's end may be impossible: Tepco
    http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110530a2.html

    Stabilizing the crisis at the Fukushima No. 1 power plant by the end of the year may be impossible, senior officials at Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Sunday, throwing a monkey wrench into plans to let evacuees return to their homes near the plant.

    ...

    But on May 12, it was confirmed that a meltdown had occurred at the No. 1 reactor, forcing the utility to abandon the water entombment idea and try to install a new cooling system that decontaminates and recycles the radioactive water flooding the reactor's turbine building instead.

    Given that the contaminated water has leaked from the No. 1 reactor's containment vessel, a Tepco official said, "We must first determine where it is leaking and seal it."

    The official added, "Unless we understand the extent of the damage, we don't even know how long that work alone would take," noting the need for one or two months more than previously thought to establish an entirely new cooling system.


  • TimTim Mai 2011
    Auch hier bei:

    > Kyodo News: "TEPCO believes stabilizing Fukushima reactors by year-end impossible"
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/05/kyodo-news-tepco-believes-stabilizing.html

    The Kyodo Japanese article has a bit more information "leaked" by the TEPCO execs:

    One executive said "6-9 month time-frame is only a target to strive for, and not a binding one." [So the "roadmap" is a wish-list.]

    About the Reactor 1 whose Containment Vessel is now found to be leaking water, "We have to find the leak and stop it. If we don't know the extend of the damage to the Containment Vessel, we don't know how long it takes to stop the leak."

    Another exec says "it will take 1 or 2 additional months" to bring the reactors in "cold shutdown" because of the bigger cooling system now envisioned.

    Yet another one says "the works at three reactors [1, 2, 3] are not progressing simultaneously, as planned. We'll have to ask workers to work during the New Year holidays."


    + sein Kommentar dazu.

  • TimTim Juni 2011
    Update der Roadmap

    > Press Release (Jun 17,2011)
    > Progress status of the "Roadmap towards Restoration from the Accident at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station"
    http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11061702-e.html

    Die PDFs sollen umfangreich sein.
  • SileneSilene Juli 2011
    [NHK] Govt., TEPCO draw roadmap to reactor decommission
    A roadmap toward decommissioning of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant indicates that the removal of melted nuclear fuel rods at the plant may begin in 10 years.

    NHK has obtained the mid- and long-term roadmap which was presented when officials from the operator of the Fukushima plant, government officials in charge of nuclear safety, and manufacturers of nuclear reactors met last week.

    The draft roadmap drawn up by the government's Nuclear Safety Commission and Tokyo Electric Power Company says they tentatively set a target date to begin removing fuel rods that melted and fell to the bottom of the reactor.

    The work is considered to be the most important phase in the decommissioning process. The roadmap indicates that removal will start in 2021 if technology essential for the work has been developed before that.

    The timeline is believed to have been set based on measures taken following the 1979 Three Mile Island accident in the United States.

    But unlike the US case, as reactor containment vessels were damaged at the Fukushima complex, they need to be fixed and filled with water.

    The roadmap shows that reactor buildings could be finally demolished and cleared away after the removal of melted fuel rods is completed, and that it will possibly take dozens of years.
  • SileneSilene Juli 2011
    [Kyodo News] Removing fuel from Fukushima Nos. 3, 4 reactors to be given priority
    The government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. will place priority on removing fuel from the spent fuel pools of the Nos. 3 and 4 reactors at the utility’s Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant in the next phase of efforts to contain the crisis there, sources close to the matter said Saturday.

    In a new road map for restoring the plant ravaged by the March earthquake and tsunami, the two parties will also specify for the first time that it will take up to three years to handle medium-term issues such as the completion of treating highly radioactive water that has accumulated, the sources said.
  • SileneSilene Juli 2011
    [NHK] Govt,TEPCO:1st goal attained in stabilization plan
    The Japanese government and Tokyo Electric Power Company are set to announce that they have completed the first step of a plan to cool the nuclear reactors at the utility's Fukushima Daiichi plant.

    In a joint assessment to be announced on Tuesday, the government and TEPCO say they have steadily reduced the amount of radiation leaking from the plant, the first target in the plan outlined in mid-April, within the original 3-month deadline.

    They will reveal that the reactors and storage pools for spent nuclear fuel have been stably cooled, and radiation levels have been declining in the surrounding air and seawater.

    But problems remain with the system to purify contaminated water, which is seen as one of the biggest hurdles. The system is operating at about 70 percent capacity.

    In addition, work has yet to begin on covering the damaged reactor buildings.
  • TimTim Juli 2011
    Wieso schaffen die eigentlich nicht die Brennstäbe vom R5 und R6 sowie dem Shared Storage Poll weg?
    Wenn es nochma größere Probleme gäbe, hätte man ein Problem weniger.
    Kosten? Man wüsste nicht wohin?
  • SileneSilene Juli 2011
    [Mainichi News] Japan to unveil updated roadmap to achieve cold shutdown of reactors
    Kan said that the goals stipulated in the so-called "step one" of the restoration roadmap had been achieved by July 17 almost as scheduled. But not all of the process has gone smoothly.

    Most notably, the key water decontamination devices, which started operating in June, have repeatedly faced problems such as water leakage. The system was operating at 73 percent of its capacity by mid-July, lower than the 80 percent target.

    During the so-called "step two," which is expected to be implemented in the three to six months following the completion of the first phase, the utility known as TEPCO aims to achieve not only a cold shutdown of the reactors but also a reduction in the total amount of contaminated water in the plant's premises.

    TEPCO would also consider creating an underground "shielding wall" to surround the reactor buildings and reactor turbine buildings so as to prevent contaminated water seeping from the buildings and get mixed in with groundwater. The wall is expected to extend 30 meters deep to a layer that does not absorb water.

    The utility said in its earlier roadmap that completing the processing of contaminated water is one of the medium-term tasks to be dealt with after the "step two" process ends, but the new roadmap is expected to show that a maximum period of about three years is to be spent on the medium-term issues, according to sources close to the matter.
  • JorindeJorinde Juli 2011
    Neue Datumsangaben:
    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110720006026.htm

    Demnach soll "Step 2" bis Januar abgeschlossen sein; Entfernung Brennstäbe (Abklingbecken), kompakte Kühlung, Dekontamination des hochbelasteten Wassers und Bau unterirdischer Barrieren in den nächsten 3 Jahren.
    "Aufmachen" und die Reaktoren selbst entsorgen will TEPCO im Lauf der nächsten 10 Jahre - sehr ambitioniert, das. Wohin damit??
  • SileneSilene Juli 2011
    [Japan Times] Plugging reactors no longer stated goal for Tepco
    To substantially reduce the amount of radioactive materials released from the plant, Tepco needs to get to the bottom of the problem: plugging holes or cracks in the reactors' containment vessels that are allowing contaminated water to flood on-site facilities, including the reactor buildings and turbine buildings, experts said.

    The updated road map, however, includes no reference to this critical work in the second stage, even though it was mentioned in past plans. And without fixing this problem, it is difficult to say that the release of radioactive materials is under control.

    "In terms of managing the leakage of radioactive materials, I think plugging the holes will be the most important point," said Tsuyoshi Misawa, a professor of reactor physics at Kyoto University's Research Reactor Institute, adding he was perplexed it wasn't included in the new plan.

    Hisashi Ninokata, a professor of reactor engineering at Tokyo Institute of Technology, also stressed the importance of plugging the leaks in the containment vessels.

    "It seems unclear what kind of plans they are considering," Ninokata said. [...]

    Misawa also pointed out that while the government and Tepco said the system has achieved stable cooling, it is still too early to describe the crippled reactors as "stable."
  • Der Nutzer und alle zugehörigen Inhalte wurden gelöscht.
  • SileneSilene Juli 2011
    cab196 said:

    Sonnenblumen zur Dekontamination?


    Schau mal hier und hier...
  • Der Nutzer und alle zugehörigen Inhalte wurden gelöscht.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Juli 2011
    Interessant wäre da jetzt, wie auf "falsche Gerüchte" reagiert werden soll, wenn es angeblich nicht ums Löschen geht...

    Ich tippe mal auf Reaktionen durch bezahlte Leute, die entsprechende Foren u.ä. folgendermaßen "bearbeiten":
    - Lächerlichmachen der entsprechenden Kommentare
    - "Das ist nicht durch mehrere Quellen bewiesen"
    usw.
  • engeng Juli 2011
    @Kürsche: Welche Internetseiten sollen denn da "abgesucht" werden? Nur japanische oder Weltweit?
    Übrigens, wie auf falsche Gerüchte reagiert werden soll, wurde mitgeteilt. Es soll eine Richtigstellung auf der Internetseite des Ministerium erfolgen. Das ist grundsätzlich keine so schlechte Idee, wenn wirklich jemand großen "Müll" verbreitet, aber doch eher unrealistisch bei den unzähligen Foren, Blogs usw.
    Ich verstehe sowieso die ganze Aufregung nicht. Die Chance das die japanische Regierung z.B. hier auf dieses Forum Einfluß nehmen könnte, warum auch immer, ist ja wohl gleich null.
  • SileneSilene August 2011
    [NHK] Discussions begin on how to scrap Fukushima plant
    A government-appointed panel has begun discussing the timetable for decommissioning the reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

    About 30 people, including members of the Atomic Energy Commission and officials from the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, took part in the panel's initial meeting on Wednesday.

    Yuichi Hayase, who joined US researchers in studying the accident at Three Mile Island in 1979, briefed the participants on how that plant was brought under control.
    Hayase explained that it took 11 years to extract all the fuel rods, as workers were coping with the world's first nuclear meltdown. It was also necessary to develop remote-controlled robots and technology to process contaminated wastewater.

    Panel members discussed middle- and long-term challenges in the decommissioning process, such as how to repair the reactor containment vessels and decontaminate the buildings by remote control to enable extraction of the fuel rods.

    One expert cited the need for long-term training of specialized personnel, while another said international expertise is essential in drawing up the timetable.

    Kyoto University Professor Hajimu Yamana, who heads the panel, said he expects longer preparations for extracting the fuel rods, because the reactor cores at Fukushima are more badly damaged than at Three Mile Island.

    The panel plans to finalize the timetable by early next year, at the end of the second stage of the process to bring the plant under control.
  • SileneSilene August 2011
    [Mainichi News] Experts split on how to decommission Fukushima nuclear plant
    In the case of the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant, meanwhile, the biggest challenge lies in how to remove the fuel, says Tadashi Inoue, a research advisor at the Central Research Institute of Electric Power Industry (CRIEPI), a foundation that conducts research on energy and environmental issues in relation to the electrical power industry. [...]

    "But," Inoue continues, "we must deal with rubble contaminated with radioactive materials that were scattered in the hydrogen blasts and treat the radiation-tainted water being used to cool nuclear fuel before we can go on to fuel removal." [...]

    Prefacing the following as "a personal opinion," Inoue says: "Building a car that can protect the people inside as much as possible from radioactive materials, and attaching an industrial robotic arm to the car that can be manipulated by those people could be one way to go about it."

    Two types of fuel removal must take place. One is to take out the spent fuel in the containment pools, and the other is to remove the melted fuel from the reactor cores. Because the radiation levels of the water in the spent fuel pools have not shown any significant changes from before the crisis, it is believed that the spent fuel has not suffered much damage. [Anmerkung: Stimmt nicht. Siehe Postings im Parallelthread] However, removing it will require repairing and reinstalling cranes to hoist the fuel rods out. [...]

    The breached reactor core is a bigger problem. It is believed that raising water levels inside the reactor has been difficult because of a hole in the bottom of the vessel. It will be necessary to plug the hole, and continue filling the vessel with water while extracting the melted fuel. How to fill the vessel with water is still being debated. If the reactor can be filled with water, steps taken after the 1979 Three Mile Island nuclear accident can serve as a guide because in that case, in which approximately 50 percent of the core had melted, workers were able to fill the reactor with water and remove the fuel within.

    Inoue predicts that removal of spent fuel from the containment pools will begin about five years after the crisis, and about 10 years in the case of melted fuel from the reactor core. Work on the four reactors at the Fukushima plant will probably take several years. [...]

    Meanwhile, at least one expert says he doesn't believe that workers will be able to remove the melted fuel from the crippled plant.

    "If there's 10 sieverts per hour of radiation outside, then the levels must be much higher closer to the reactor core," says Tadahiro Katsuta, an associate professor at Meiji University and an expert in reactor engineering and reactor policy who was once a member of an anti-nuclear non-profit organization called Citizens' Nuclear Information Center (CNIC). "The fuel has melted, and we haven't been able to cool it consistently. If work is begun five or 10 years from now when radiation levels have not yet sufficiently gone down, workers' health could be at serious risk."

    Katsuta predicts that it will probably take at least 10 years just to determine whether it is possible to remove the fuel. He adds that it could very well take 50 years before the task of dismantling the reactor and other facilities is completed.
  • dirkdirk August 2011
    "...have not shown any significant changes from before the crisis,..."
    Wie hoch waren denn die Werte, bzw wie sind denn die Werte im Normalfall?
    Denn nur wenn man die hat, kann man mit den aktuellen Werten vergleichen.
  • SileneSilene August 2011
    Im Wasser der Abklingbecken sollten keinerlei gelöste Spaltprodukte vorhanden sein. Das ist nur dann der Fall, wenn die Brennstäbe nicht mehr intakt sind.
  • vosteivostei Dezember 2011
    http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,804082,00.html

    Die japanische Regierung hat heute bekannt gegeben, dass der Zustand einer sog. Kaltabschaltung erreicht sei.

    Das Medienecho ist enorm im Moment dazu, aber bei fast allen Meldungen schwingen Zweifel mit.

    Diese begründen sich darauf, dass sich die Jap. Regierung auf die Temperaturangaben von <100°C und die Möglichkeit der Kühlung beruft. Der Cold Shut down ist aber imho eher so definiert, dass es eine stabile Kühlung im Kreislauf geben muss. Im Mom schaut es aber so aus, dass man Wasser hineinschüttet, es auffängt, ohne zu wissen, ob vollständig, es reinigt und wieder hineinkippt. Des weiteren definiert sich imho der Begriff auch darüber, dass kein Xenon freigesetzt wird. Exakt dies war vor knapp 2 Monaten der Fall. Darüber hinaus müsste die Messung der Temperaturen verlässlich sein - logo - die Sensoren an der Unterseite der Cores zeigen U100, kein Wunder, die Schmelzen befinden sich ja auch weiter unten, wo keine Sensorik ist. Und vom Status, dass sowohl unterirdisch, als auch atmosphärisch nichts mehr freigesetzt wird sind wir meilenweit entfernt.<br />
    Dreist. Oder?
  • clancy688clancy688 Dezember 2011
    Nun ja, ich seh's so, dass der Begriff des Cold Shutdowns für Fukushima nicht mehr angewendet werden kann...

    Das ist ja so als ob man auf dem OP-Tisch gestorbenen Patienten stolz verkündet, der Eingriff wäre vorbei. Oder bei einem verunglückten Auto mit Totalschaden, dass der Motor aus wäre.
  • vosteivostei Dezember 2011
    Ich revidiere mal mein "Dreist" von weiter oben.

    Nüchtern betrachtet, kalt, juristisch ^^ - direkt Lügen tun die nie, also deren Regierung bzw Tepco und Co.
    Man pickt sich ein, zwei Gesichtspunkte heraus und siehe da:

    0 Tote, ein bißchen Strahlung, und sterben müssen wir ja eh mal alle, also fast alle. Wir messen die Temperatur des kranken Babies irgendwo und auf Distanz und solang wir genug Windeln und Futter haben....
    (Ironietags bitte dazudenken)

    Zur Roadmap: im Prinzip wird es wohl tatsächlich so sein, dass eine Einhausung des Geländes in den nächsten zwei Jahren gebaut werden wird, es ca 10 Jahre dauert, bis man dran denken kann an die BE bzw deren Reste zu kommen und das Ganze in 30 Jahren abgeschlossen sein wird.
    Und ich vermute mal, dass Fuk Daiichi wohl das erste Endlager Japans werden wird.
  • dirkdirk Dezember 2011
    Das schöne ist das die Medien mal alles wieder nachplappern ohne zu wissen wovon sie reden.
    Aufhänger : Fukushima ist sicher

    Operation gelungen - Patient tot
  • dirkdirk Dezember 2011
    Scheinbar merken die Medien langsam was, die Berichte zum CSD werden wesentlich kritischer
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    Japans Regierung erklärt erfolgreichen Cold Shutdown:

    Japans Premierminister Yoshihiko Noda erklärte heute vor anderen Ministern, der Zustand des Cold Shutdown (“kalte Stilllegung”) am Kernkraftwerk Fukushima Daiichi, dass seit dem März-Unglück für den Austritt radioaktiven Materials, die Kontamination der Umwelt und die Belastung von Lebensmitteln verantwortlich ist, sei jetzt erreicht worden. Alle Reaktoren des Kraftwerks befänden sich nun in einem stabilen Zustand, in dem die Temperatur nicht über 100°C steigt. Mit dieser Erklärung erfüllt die Kommission zur Bewältigung der Atomkrise ihre Zusage, es sei möglich bis Ende des Jahres 2011 die Lage im AKW Fukushima unter Kontrolle zu bringen. Zugleich ist mit der Kaltabschaltung “Schritt Zwei” des Krisenplans offiziell erfolgreich abgeschlossen.

    Dennoch, so räumte Premierminister Noda ein, liege noch viel Arbeit vor der Regierung. Neben dem Wiederaufbau der besonders durch den Tsunami geschädigten Küstenregionen stelle die Dekontamination ganzer Landstriche, um eine Rückkehr evakuierter Einwohner zu ermöglichen, vor große Aufgaben, die es nun zu bewältigen gilt.


    Source: http://www.spreadnews.de/japan-aktuell-zweifel-trotz-angeblich-stabiler-lage-durch-cold-shutdown-am-akw-fukushima/1118940/
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    Hier noch etwas mehr Kontext/Aussagen:

    > Japan gov't declares 'cold shutdown' of crippled Fukushima plant - The Mainichi Daily News
    http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20111216p2g00m0dm160000c.html
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    > Decommissioning Fukushima plant to take max. 40 years - The Mainichi Daily News
    http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20111216p2a00m0na004000c.html
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    Mehr "Unterhaltung" bei EX-SKF - schon bizarr..

    ---

    > Japan's PM Noda Declares a Cold Shutdown "State" and the End of Nuke Accident | EX-SKF
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/japans-pm-noda-declares-cold-shutdown.html

    > As Noda Declares Fukushima Accident Over, US Deputy Secretary of State Congratulates, Offers Support in Decontamination | EX-SKF
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/as-noda-declares-fukushima-accident.html

    > State of Cold Shutdown: Hosono Says "No One Knows Where the Fuel Is, But I'm Confident It is Cooled" | EX-SKF
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/state-of-cold-shutdown-hosono-says-no.html

    In a typical display of utter disregard for the general public, the Noda administration announced last night that there would be no more joint press conference where reporters could meet with TEPCO people and the government officials from the Cabinet Office and other relevant ministries and agencies, receive updates and ask questions.

    The last night's joint press conference is to be the last one, now that Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant is officially in a "state of a cold shutdown" and the accident has been decreed by the government to be "over".


    > Cold Shutdown State at #Fukushima: IAEA's Amano Congratulates | EX-SKF
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/cold-shutdown-state-at-fukushima-iaeas.html
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    > Japanese PM Noda about declaring cold shutdown

  • JorindeJorinde Dezember 2011
    TEPCO zieht Konsequenzen: einfach keine gemeinsamen Pressekonferenzen mehr:


    No More Joint Press Conference on the Fukushima Accident

    where the reporters get to ask questions to TEPCO and the relevant government ministries and agencies that deal with the accident, all in one room. The joint press conference, which has at least helped keep some politicians and bureaucrats honest or hold them accountable, is not only over for the month of December but over for good.

    Why? Because the accident is declared by the prime minister of Japan to have been over, and the members of the Press Club has had enough, according to Ryusaku Tanaka, an independent journalist who's been covering the Fukushima accident from the beginning.

    There was a remark from Minister Hosono which was more chilling than the declaration of cold shutdown. He said, "Today (December 16) is the last day of the government/TEPCO joint press conference."

    The government and TEPCO were going to use the baseless "cold shutdown declaration" to mark the end of the accident, and discontinue the joint press conference to signal the end.

    "To stop the joint press conference is to harm the right of the citizens to know. TEPCO is allowed to lie, is not held responsible. But the politicians, if they answer the questions from the reporters in an irresponsible way, they will damage their reputation and the success in the next election may be jeopedized. Is it possible for you to continue the joint press conference?" I asked.

    Minister Hosono said something to the effect that "TEPCO has changed significantly (disclosing more information)". One common trait of many politicians is to defend TEPCO at all cost.

    Minister Hosono cited the reason to discontinue the joint press conference as "people in the mass media have suggested to us that it may be time to discontinue". "Who are the people in the media? Newspapers? TV? Or are you talking about the Press Club?" Hosono replied, "I cannot say, because of the trust between the media and us." Talk about letting the cat out of the bag. The discontinuation of the joint press conference was proposed by the Press Club. There is no way that freelance journalists would suggest such a thing. Besides, you wouldn't call freelance journalists the mass media.

    After I almost had a brain freeze on the announcement of the discontinuation of the joint press conference, an incident took place that got my blood boiling with anger. It was 1 hour 15 minutes into the press conference. Minister Hosono left the room in the middle of the conference. Then President Toshio Nishizawa [of TEPCO] immediately left the room.

    "You [fill in the expletive of your choice, readers]". Anger swelled inside me. "Why is President Nishizawa is leaving?" I asked. The room was immediately filled with commotion, as freelance journalists started to press hard on the irresponsible Nishizawa. "Why is the highest ranking executive [of TEPCO] leaving before everyone?" President Nishizawa's action was the epitome of the attitude of TEPCO toward the nuclear accident.

    It turned out Minister Hosono left the press conference in progress in order to appear on "NHK News 9". According to Takashi Uesugi, freelance journalist, to leave the press conference in order to appear on TV is "neglect of official duty" and is subject of censure.

    An irresponsible government protects an irresponsible TEPCO, and newspapers and TV do not question TEPCO. The headline in the morning papers on December 17 will be "Cold Shutdown" in large fonts. Now, a good cause [cold shutdown] to "forcibly return" the residents has been given.

    Indeed.

    By the way, TEPCO wants to reduce the number of daily press conference to "one" (currently they are still holding two press conferences per day), and the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency wants to stop giving a daily press conference and only have it twice a week, now that the accident is "over".

    Cold shutdown of information flow on the way, as the government embarks on an ever grander "Extend and Pretend" that everything is OK - decontaminating, returning the residents, making them grow crops again next year to feed the rest of Japan (some Fukushima farmers have already turned the soil in preparation for the next year's rice crop) while the NISA looks the other way even if TEPCO lets the treated water with full of strontium and tritium into the ocean.

    You see, the radiation is a "kuro-ko" (person in black) in a Kabuki Theater. A "kuro-ko", dressed in black (thus the name), is present on the stage, assisting the actors or manipulating some tools for theatrical effects. He is there for all the audience to see. But it is an unspoken rule that the audience is not supposed to see, and ignore whatever he does on stage.

    The whole country will continue to play Kabuki, until it can't, if that ever comes to pass.



    Quelle: http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-cold-shutdown_20.html
  • vosteivostei Dezember 2011
    Woher Tepco sein Selbstbewusstsein nimmt? Aus der Stromversorgung Honshus und seiner Produktionsstätten, wie zb div. Autohersteller?
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    > TEPCO/Japanese Government Released Mid to Long-Term "Roadmap" for Decommissioning Reactors 1 to 4 at Fukushima I Nuke Plant | EX-SKF
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/tepcojapanese-government-released-mid.html
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    > Deutsche Welle: "Fukushima power plant is far from 'cold' " | EX-SKF
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/deutsche-welle-fukushima-power-plant-is.html
  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    The long term roadmap has been released in English here:
    http://www.meti.go.jp/english/earthquake/nuclear/decommissioning/pdf/111221_01.pdf

    Source:

    > TEPCO To Socialize Losses, More Questions Arise About Decommissioning Plans | SimplyInfo
    http://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=4360
  • engeng Dezember 2011
    Hmmm, gibt es irgendwelche Hinweise, Messungen o.ä. die eindeutig nachweisen das es keinen Cold-Shutdown gibt?
    Wenn nicht, dann kann Tepco sagen es gibt zur Zeit einen Cold-Shutdown.
    Aber Tepco hat nicht behauptet das es keine Probleme mehr gibt.

    Abgesehen davon, jetzt mal ehrlich: welches Statement würde man denn hier aus der Runde ersatzweise abgeben wenn wir Tepco wären?
    Wir wissen nicht was läuft, aber wir arbeiten dran - wäre das besser?
    Oder: es könnte sein das wir die Sache im Griff haben - aber die Schmelze könnte sich auch gerade zum Mittelpunkt der Erde durchfressen?
    Oder: wir machen hier alles was jetzt noch möglich ist und wenn etwas passiert können wir es auch nicht mehr ändern?
    Oder: wir packen hier jetzt ein und dann sollen sich andere drum kümmern?

    (Danke Tim übrigens für die Roadmap. Das hat jedenfalls alles Hand und Fuß wie man so schön sagt).

  • TimTim Dezember 2011
    Nach einer Kernschmelze ist keine Kaltabschaltung möglich, da die Struktur der Brennstäbe und des Kühlmittelkreislaufs zerstört ist und die Überreste unkontrolliert reagieren, auch wenn Druck und Temperatur zumindest zeitweise die Bedingungen der Kaltabschaltung erfüllen.


    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abschaltung_%28Reaktortechnik%29

    Soweit ich es verstehe, gibt es die sehr enge und "einfache" Definition eines Cold Shutdowns und den eigentlich damit gemeinten Zustand. Jener kann nach einer Kernschmelze nicht mehr erreicht werden.

    Der eigentliche Punkt ist was mit der Verkündigung eines "Cold Shutdowns" verbunden ist: weniger (gemeinsame) Pressekonferenzen, Abzug der Soldaten aus dem Gebiet, Zurückführen der Bevölkerung etc. Insgesamt eben die Krise als beendet zu erklären.

    Nur das ist sie leider nicht..

  • dirkdirk Dezember 2011
    Wer hat denn eigentlich den Cold Shutdown erklärt? Die Regierung oder Tepco?
  • JorindeJorinde Dezember 2011
    @eng

    Als Erstes würde ein verantwortungsvoller Betreiber doch JEDE Hilfe anfordern, die er kriegen kann, statt zu versuchen, externe Fachleute so lange wie möglich vom Gelände fernzuhalten. Besagte Fachleute würde er auch hinzuziehen, wenn es Daten zu interpretieren gilt, statt zu warten, bis irgendjemand dummerweise unabhängige Werte erhebt oder die Lücken in den Handouts findet. Außerdem würde der Betreiber mit der Regierung Klartext hinsichtlich der Folgen für Mensch und Umwelt reden, statt sich um die Verantwortung zu drücken. Ja klar, das ist der wirtschaftliche Bankrott. Ist es aber doch inzwischen sowieso, oder?
  • engeng Dezember 2011
    @Jorinde: wir müssen da unterscheiden, zwischen externen Fachleuten für den Bereich Technik und für den Bereich Strahlung. Für den Bereich Strahlung gebe ich Dir völlig Recht. Dafür sollte jede Hilfe angefordert werden die möglich und sinnvoll ist, um die umfangreichen Aufgaben in Bezug auf sachliche Information der Bevölkerung, erforderliche Messungen, Verringerung bzw. Beseitigung der Strahlenbelastung für die Umwelt usw. usw. umfassend zu bewältigen.

    In Bezug auf Fachleute für die Technik kann ich aus eigener Erfahrung sagen das externe Fachleute nicht immer hilfreich sind, sondern manchmal zu einem zusätzlichen Problem werden können. Vor allem wenn sie sich mit der Anlagensituation vor Ort nicht auskennen. Aus den Handouts von Tepco ist allerdings ersichtlich das sie mit ausgesuchten Fachleuten aus verschieden Bereichen und von Zulieferfirmen zusammenarbeiten. Und wenn man die Roadmap sieht kann man erkennen das dort sehr intensiv kurz-, mittel- und langfristig geplant wird und sich auch sehr vieles in der Umsetzung befindet.
  • TimTim März 2012
    > TEPCO’S Road Map Includes Hints At Reactor Damage | SimplyInfo
    http://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=5155

    Interessante Infos
  • TimTim März 2012
    > Reactor Decommissioning | SimplyInfo
    http://www.simplyinfo.org/?page_id=5166

    Von Ende Februar. N Teil hatten wir schon, n Teil scheint mir neu.

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